I think we’ve had enough of the vegan cat food argument on Lemmy.world at this point.
“We taught a lion to eat Tofu”
I mean what a fucking mountain to die on. Bravo to all involved this has been quite entertaining.
I like and admire vegans.
I probably should be vegan because I am lucky enough to have the economic privilege to support that kind of lifestyle.
But, as with many other communities centered around lifestyle topics, I would never want to participate in a vegan community. Lifestyle communities always become insular and echo-chambery, so you become a pariah if you don’t properly adhere to 100% of the community consensus behaviors.
Not just vegans, but you see it happen with fitness communities, diy/home decor, a lot of hobbies, etc.
I’m just keeping an eye out for good recipes.
I like that approach.
Let me know if you find any favorites, I am down for anything easy and quick if they’re out there (as long as it’s not more rice and beans).
Just don’t interact with communities you dislike. It’s a pretty bad excuse to blame other people for your decisions.
Abstaining from animal murder and torture is admirable and something I should do OTOH some internet commenters are mean about it
I wonder why they would be mean…
Good job! This is the comment that made them turn vegan! Mission accomplished!
If your belief lives or dies because of some internet comment it won’t last anyway.
If belligerent internet comments actually convinced you to change your diet in such an inconvenient manner for no reward but moral superiority, you are not like the people you’re trying to convince. Abusers and cults love bomb because its more effective on a random sample of people
If one believes that the mother losing her newborn cries about it for days and that this is happening on an industrial scale that person will be very indignant about such a horrific injustice. That’s what convinced me, this is a real injustice and not being angry about it would be insincere
Convincing people to be ethical past the point of inconvenience requires insincerity, yes. The average person is a horrible human being
See here’s what’s really really funny, people over and over again say “man if the vegan people who were trying to convince me could just not be gigantic assholes about it then maybe it would be easier to join their community”
And then you come along and are a gigantic asshole about it and prove the entire point.
Super solid representation, 5/7, perfection.
If you need people to be nice to you to convince you, you care more about appearances than the argument. If people being rude stops you from acting on something you actually believe in you won’t last a month as a vegan.
Going vegan means changing your habits, giving up a lot of your treats with nothing in return. You will be the weird one at christmas that needs “special” catering, people have to choose restaurants based on your habits and you will be the butt of a lot of jokes simply because you care about animals not being enslaved. If you need people to be nice to you, and applaud you and make you feel all warm and fuzzy to keep that going you won’t last.
The first lesson every vegan needs to learn is: there are no rewards and no one will compliment you. You are doing this out of your own conviction and not for anyone else.
You must be exhausting to be around. sheesh
Well this has been great, thanks for being the point.
good talk nice representation, really convinced me to be nicer to corpsemunchers going forward.
Going vegan means changing your habits, giving up a lot of your treats with nothing in return. You will be the weird one at christmas that needs “special” catering, people have to choose restaurants based on your habits and you will be the butt of a lot of jokes simply because you care about animals not being enslaved. If you need people to be nice to you, and applaud you and make you feel all warm and fuzzy to keep that going you won’t last.
this should be on a billboard.
This is precisely the circlejerking mentioned in the meme. Whether true or not, the community presents itself as unwelcoming and self-aggrandizing. These are not traits that easily convince people to listen to the cause.
There’s nothing to listen to, either you believe animal ag is horrendous and unethical and act on it or you don’t. That’s it. No pretty pleases are going to convince someone they have to give up their beloved steak and cheese for nothing in return.
Having a reasonable discussion with these people is like trying to play a game of chess with a pigeon. They’ll topple all the pieces, shit on the board and claim victory.
Gonna copy large chunks of my last comment because no ones there to stop me.
This isn’t a debate like how should we reduce plastic accumulation or the carcinogenic properties of red meat. Not supporting slavery and murder should be the norm, not something that needs to be argued for at length. Being vegan is not doing something good, but not being vegan is doing something evil. This is our position. If someone can’t accept that what their doing is evil but needs to be asked nicely not to kill the screaming orphan who never got to meet his mom because we wanted to steal her milk then they won’t accept that it is an actual real evil that is taking place. It will remain a theoretical. But there really is a room where these orphans are brought to be murdered. A person murdering them. And a mother who screamed bitterly over losing their newborn. It is a real evil and being polite about it masks the horror taking place not to mention is completely insincere since we aren’t interested in debating or in weighing pros and cons. It’s a horrific injustice and we will talk about it as such. There is an evil inherent to not being vegan. Fuck the non-vegans.
this is pretty much just appeal to emotion.
thing is, it’s a philosophy of empathy and compassion. you don’t really join a.commmunity. there are no V cards I’m afraid.
This discussion is literally about the vegan community here on Lemmy
I thought it was more about abuse.
That’s not the goal. They attack people because that makes them feel better. Animals? Who cares. Definitely not them.
Nah, facts dont care about feelings. Being vegan a day prevents the death of an animal.
I’m a cow and this made me feel better about my fate
yes. it is the vegans who really hate animals!
What I said is that you don’t help animals with your hysteria. So I can conclude vegans struggle with logic. At least in your case.
Nope, thats projection when carnists refuse to read all the studies that supports the plant-based diet and act rude when they realize their actions cause harm.
brutal take down. nice
it definitely seems so sometimes
and never the people who fund an industrial killing machine for food we don’t actually need and will kill us both individually and collectively.
I was going to stop torturing animals, bit some mean vegan said some words that hurt my feelings.
So now I’m going to eat two burgers!
chortle!
I think I will actually do this now just to prove you wrong
legendary!
Meat eaters will be convicted for eating meat in the future.
Lmfao. You gonna be vegan Stalin or something?
Stalin only cares for himself.
By holding meat eaters accountable for the crimes of eating the flesh of others we prevent the deaths of other animals.
@Stovetop did not say nor implied that he/she is not vegan, because of the community.
I probably should be vegan … But … I would never want to participate in a vegan community.
Seems pretty clear to me.
You can take part in something without taking part in the community about that thing, though. I play guitar a lot, but I don’t frequent any guitar-based communities
I’m fully aware, but “I’m not going vegan because they’re so annoying” is a pretty common excuse.
Take the L dude.
Not only is that clearly not the reason in this case, of what you say is true (and I believe it considering your behavior) that’s a pretty damning indictment about your collective personalities.
Youre blaming OTHERS for leaving your cause because YOU’RE impossible to put up with. Pathetic. The literal definition of that meme where the dude puts the stick into his bike spokes and then cries about it.
If you hate non-vegans so much then stop talking to them. Simple as.
Im saying if someone stops being vegan because of what people say they dont actually hold the moral conviction that torture, rape and murder of any animal is wrong. I’m not crying about others leavinge “the cause” Im angry at the smugness and how readily people will accept any excuse in order to keep the literal orphan crushing machine going.
It is a common excuse. And yet you’re still being really annoying.
Sorry for not being nicer to bloodmouths. Wouldst thou please ent’rtain the notion of not enslaving sentient beings?
Yeah that isn’t what they said though
Then you need to go back to school for reading comprehension, because being a vegan and participating in a community about veganism are not the same thing, not even remotely close.
and yet that seems to be the stated reason…
Only because you’re inferring a lot from a couple comments. You don’t know why they aren’t vegan (which could be for any number of reasons), the only thing you know, and are basing your entire assumptions on, is that they don’t want to hang out in spaces full of insufferable vegans.
Only if you have poor reading comprehension.
so you become a pariah if you don’t properly adhere to 100% of the community consensus behaviors.
You don’t pocket mulch?!
I’m a level 5
I’m actually rather thankful for this entire drama, or rather my cats are.
I was ‘this’ close to forgetting some ham for their once in a while treat. Thanks, /c/vegan!Someone is looking for attention.
Isn’t it a rule if they stop acting superior they lose their vegan card and superpowers?
Hexbear’s largest and most site-threatening drama was over its vegan comm (and I think the mods of Reddit’s vegancirclejerk?). It ended with the site requiring content warnings on all pictures of meat.
But you know what? They were right. Vegans are basically right about everything, and the reason me and my fellow omnis get our jimmies so rustled by them is because we fucking know they’re right.
I mean, they are vegans. Their brains withered long ago.
Isn’t this something that the fediverse was explicitly designed to support?
We’re making fun of them for making use of one of the foundational features of the platform?If they don’t like it there, they can move again. And again. Or host their own instance.
Idk what this creepy vicarious butthurt is about, or why it has become so popular.
Circle jerking against vegans is a pasttime of the Internet denizens
Yeah, but it’s a pretty pathetic passtime. At least find a good reason, rather than doing literally the thing you want them to do.
Like, insulting them for leaving is just as bad as them crying that their toxic behavior scares people away. It makes no sense.
I mean this kind of a perfect example of doing the thing where you blow shit up over an extremely pedantic issue which is at best tangentially related to the core ethic, specifically because you view nuance itself as a threat. As far as purity tests dissolving into self parody, I’m not sure there’s a better example for veganism.
And I say this as a person who otherwise sympathizes with vegans, but often finds them insufferable. Self awareness is the vaccine to self parody.
Like a family camping trip, classic fun. Pitch a tent, start a fire, roast some vegans and sing kumbaya
this reads like cope.
Because it is
Do you just not believe vegan cats exist?
Supposedly they’d die right? Not live long healthy lives? Or live longer than cats on a standard diet?
Pretty much, yeah. And I’m not convinced by your news article either as the study described relies on the reporting of pet-owners. Vegan cat owners forcing such a diet on their pet aren’t exactly people I trust to be 100% honest about the wellness of said cat.
That’s the problem, just because they don’t immediately drop dead doesn’t make the diets any better for them.
Yes and no. The theory is that each instance is supposed to be more specialized, kind of like the old BBS that used to be rampant on the internet. If you are moving to an instance just because people disagree with you instead to have more discussion over a specific topic that is not really in line with the purpose of the fediverse.
Sure you can ally yourself with the CCP and that might be totally legal (if they collect any personal data and send it overseas to China then that would be breaking the law but it’s unlikely) but that doesn’t mean it isn’t frowned upon.
That’s a stretch, but even assuming it’s true, why do you care enough about their community to frown upon it?
I have opinions on a lot of things that don’t effect me at all. Palestinian genocide, Uighurs in sweatshops, child labor laws in other states, homeless people being harassed, the socioeconomic shift of Hong Kong losing independent legal rights.
I can respect their freedom to ally themselves to people who wish them direct harm, but I also have the freedom to express my disappointment in them.
It’s just disguised metadrama. They joined the instances this instance doesn’t like.
And so they’re moving, and somehow y’all are… Upset about it??? Make it make sense
I don’t see anyone upset about it.
Making fun of them, yes. But not upset.Making fun of them for doing what you want?
Or do you want them to stay?How do you come to either of those conclusions?
They’re leaving.
Y’all are making fun of them for leaving.If you want them to leave, as people often told them to do, why are you making fun of them for it? Why do you care where they go?
If you don’t want them to leave, why are you being mean to them?
That’s not why people make fun of them.
With some people you cant win with them no matter what you do.
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Treating vegans like the enemy because you do not understand them. Why is it so hard to critically think about why the vegans are so committed to their cause?
Nobody but toxic people like other toxic people. You’re not above anyone, you’re just toxic.
Some people are not mature enough to handle the vegan perspective.
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If they choose to migrate to another instance, it will likely be a more extremist instance with poor moderation that has been significantly defederated.
In theory this is how it should work, but in practice the toxic people tend to move to general purpose more laissez-faire places like .world or .ml, which makes de-federating and cutting off 30% of all users a difficult decision for anyone trying to have a community.
The answer is less centralization, but that can’t be forced. beehaw.org (for example) made the decision to cut off .world and they are better for it. But they are a large-ish instance in their own right.
So if you dont agree with someone they are an extremist, got it.
You are aware vegan cats exist right? Like its already a thing, and its being studied.
Y’all are so confidently wrong about stuff its crazy, and then y’all pat yourselves in the back for all grouping up and agreeing together.
Just because a lot of people are on one side of a position does not make it the right position, you must be aware there is more to think about right?
I didn’t say extremist I said toxic but really anyone who’s poorly socialized will go where they’re allowed, which in Lemmy terms means general catch-all instances with loose moderation like .world and .ml.
One study estimated 1% of cat owners feed their cat a vegan diet. Why do you think that might be? Are they all extremist animal abusers? Or is it possible you had an assumption that turned out to be wrong and now don’t know how to reconcile?
Yes, if you are not feeding your pet a proper diet and are allowing it to suffer, you are an animal abuser.
One study estimated
ok, you already lost me
Nah, eating and using animals is the extremist way of doing things.
casual drive-by meme;
Did they move to .ml or hexbear?
Both and more
“[…] well moderated and run.”
LOL!
Vegans and transsexuals turning to fascists is one of the things that I’ll never understand.
transsexuals
This is exactly why trans people flocked to a community that actually respects them.
What’s wrong with the word “transexual”? \gen
Both already had a vegan community and hexbear is vegan by default (carnists need to tag their post if it contains meat, dairy etc.)
Lots of othering happening by commentators promoting to be vegan, is othering a core principle of veganism?
I may be wrong, but I think that veganism is about not exploiting/eating sentient creatures
So the aggressive othering is just something done for fun?
You might feel othered because you are different, but I for one wish all animals feel nothing but acceptance and peace (including you)
Oh bless your heart my sweet summer child.
Are you othering me?
What if your behaviour towards other humans demonstrates a complete lack of any morality?
Who are you to force everyone else to do what your say? That sounds like slavery. Who are you to discriminate against those who eat meat? That sounds like the discrimination suffered by LGBTQ folks.
Who decided that you were morally superior and that anything you do is justified in the name of your moral purity?
As a vegan tankie, I’m more than happy to welcome anyone who is passionate about justice and equality. If you think for yourself rather than just following and upholding arbitrary social norms, you’re going to get pushback from the people who believe in those norms. Whether the norms in question are the needless industrialized mass slaughter of animals, or the needless industrialized mass slaughter of the victims of US imperialism. And it’s much easier to have meaningful, higher level discussions among people who share certain common values, so you’re not having to constantly refute the same shitty low effort talking points over and over.
Please, keep pushing your vegan users our way.
Lemmy dot world definitely doesn’t circlejerk, no siree.
I am enjoying watching vegans battle everyone. Most people are not prepared for a conversation on veganism. Vegans have been refining these arguments for a decade now and can present clear sharp moral stances with a counter to everything you have to say. They also have the easier side to argue.
Im not a vegan but I’m not talking shit to a vegan for fear of getting dragged into a veganism debate.
Vegans have been refining these arguments for a decade now and can present clear sharp moral stances with a counter to everything you have to say.
this doesn’t make them right, and in fact often leads them to use easily debunked but rhetorically impressive arguments. that’s called sophistry.
The rhetorically impressive and easily debunked argument:
A) Slavery of sentient beings is wrong
B) Animals are sentient
∴ Enslaving animals is wronganimal agriculture isn’t slavery. i don’t believe even vegans believe this syllogism rings true. if they did, we’d have a lot more harriet tubmans and a lot fewer tash petersons.
i used a plural. it’s not just one argument. you’re not being very honest about the breadth of the arguments made.
I disagree. The arguments vegans use are far more morally consistent and thought out than non vegans. Non vegans don’t reason themselves into the position and often don’t have a good justification for why they’re not vegan. When they are pushed they fall apart instantly.
Non vegans don’t reason themselves into the position
most of the time, maybe. but ex-vegans certainly do, among others.
The arguments vegans use are far more morally consistent and thought out than non vegans.
it’s true that vegans often think far more about the moral arguments around veganism. i, however, find the arguments to be unconvincing, and often sophistic.
They also have the easier side to argue.
no, they don’t
Ok what’s the moral justification for eating meat?
I think it is funny to make this an ethics discussion when there is plenty of evidence that bacon and sausage cause digestive tract cancers. Meat is also pretty expensive unless heavily subsidized.
I think the main focus should be on educating people that a healthy diet contains a very small amount of meat even though the meat industry has managed to make people think it should be in every meal.
i don’t need one. there is no reason for me to believe it’s immoral. it’s probably amoral.
Do you think that animals have consciousness? Do they feel pain, fear? Is it moral for you to inflict pain and fear on a conscious being? What about 1,000,000 of those beings? Would you butcher a toddler for meat? What about an animal with similar (or more) depth of emotion and cognition than that? Is it okay because they are other species? What about the deforestation caused by animal agriculture? What about the impact on climate change? I think there are many valid moral arguments that you are outright dismissing with a mere hand wave. I hope you give it some more thought
you are outright dismissing with a mere hand wave.
i am not. i have been fighting with vegans, primarily on issues of the environment, for i think 8 or 9 years now. i have heard about every argument (though i’m always excited to find a new one!), and i have not been convinced by any of them that i have a duty to be vegan.
Is it moral for you to inflict pain and fear on a conscious being?
i suppose that depends on circumstances.
if you have an argument that it is immoral, make it. i don’t care for your interrogative style.
I like to give people questions to ponder and explore. I think my arguments are very clear from the questions I have raised. Suffering of conscious beings is a negative thing. Particularly the egregious conditions in which we raise our “meat”. This isn’t even considering the horrible conditions that humans suffer working in and around the meat industry.
I like to give people questions to ponder and explore.
if you don’t wan to construct an argument that’s fine, but the socratic method isn’t terribly convincing for me and many others.
Suffering of conscious beings is a negative thing.
can you support this claim?
What about the deforestation caused by animal agriculture?
that’s bad. buying beans doesn’t fix it though.
This is a strawman. No one is arguing buying beans fixes deforestation. However, if less meat is produced (ie less animals are raised for slaughter), then less deforestation will come as a result of the meat industry. If legume farming was destroying the rainforest, I’d have a problem with that too
If legume farming was destroying the rainforest,
turns out, a lot of the the deforested amazon is being used to grow soy.
if less meat is produced (ie less animals are raised for slaughter), then less deforestation will come as a result of the meat industry.
but just being vegan doesn’t cause this to happen.
I just had a look myself after your comment and cannot confirm your claim at all. There are, understandably, quite a few posts about this debacle and the future of their sub but more than half is stuff related to veganism not related to cats.
You replied to the wrong person
Damn, thanks, moved it.
No one hates vegans. Almost everyone hates vegan extremists. No one cares what you eat. You want to eat brown slop and claim its the best thing ever fill your boots. You want a vegan pet, get a rabbit. Just don’t try to shame everyone else into doing what you want and don’t feed a carnivore a vegan diet and no one will say anything.
There are so many dishes you can make with plants and yet you choose the term “slop”
I’ve seen some of the pictures that have been posted in c/vegan. Some of them were literally brown slop. My family eats a number of vegetarian and vegan dishes along with those that contain meat. I don’t care what anyone wants to eat, even if it is brown slop.
You’re choosing the worst looking examples of plant-based foods to suit your claim, any soap could be considered slop.
You can make salads, tacos, burgers, bread, desserts all with plants.
Yes, I’m definitely picking the worst examples to illustrate my point just as someone else used the word, “murder” (the killing of one human being by another) four times when referring to non-humans.
I haven’t seen any posts come up in All where I said, “That looks really good. I would eat that.” I remember several photos of puddles of lumpy goo where I thought, “Ew”.
I’ve eaten plenty of vegetarian and vegan meals that I thought were delicious. I have no problem with vegetarians or vegans. I have a real problem with extremists no matter how they mistakenly believe that they are absolutely superior.
I am enjoying watching vegans battle everyone. Most people are not prepared for a conversation on veganism.
I think it is good that they prefer to not have to argue about the validity of their choices, so stay in their own communities. going to c/vegan and being a shit head should be instance-wide bannable (even if it’s temporary). but when they are in other communities they should be respectful of others choices, not sandbag them with sophistry.
going to c/vegan and being a shit head should be instance-wide bannable (even if it’s temporary).
Are we singling out c/vegan as snowflakes, or are we planning on making being a shithead in communities a banable offence?
going into a community and being a shithead should be a temporary instance-wide ban, yea. don’t go into c/DBZ and say “funimation sucks. dbz sucks. dragonball sucks. you are a bunch of dumb babies”.
Yeah. I do agree with vegans in that humans should transition to a diet that’s more sustainable and removes the animal suffering from the equation - and I do put in some effort to reduce my use of animal based products but: god damnit some people of that community are some seriously insufferable people to converse with
Exactly. There are ethical, environmental and health reasons to decrease humanity’s meat consumption. But screaming slurs with religous zealousy burning in your eyes will not win over the majority of the population. If you push people, they push back. Especially on morals, which is the least efficient argument to have a plant based diet - yet it’s the one some vegans like to push the most, as it makes them feel better about themselves.
I know exactly what vegans know, about eg. dairy industry and the rape of cows. Seen many sickening documentaries, and I believe that in a 100 years we will look back on exploiting/killing animals for dairy/meat as we do now on slavery.
Still, I eat meat.
Much less meat than I did years ago, but I have no intention to fully stop, as the alternatives are not yet practical, affordable, or tasty enough for me. If a lot of people decreased their meat consumption, our planet would be much better - how about we take that first step together, instead of insulting each other?
Even flat-earthers have refined their arguments over the years, which doesn’t make them any less stupid. I have zero moral problems with my meat consumption and I’ll debate it with anyone.
Flat earth is not at all comparable to Veganism. Vegans don’t need to make up anything to justify their side. They simply care for animals and therefore they don’t eat them.
I’m not vegan so I’m not taking you up on that debate.
Yup, vegans have science and studies to back up their claims while some meateaters have tradition and false equivalences to back up theirs.
Vegans have been refining these arguments for a decade now and can present clear sharp moral stances with a counter to everything you have to say
Lol they fuck they can, they couldn’t even properly present and defend their own sources.
Most people are not
prepared forinterested in a conversation on veganism.Vegans have been
refining these argumentspreaching at people who didn’t ask for a decade nowand can present
clear sharp moral stances with a counter to everythingpresent you as a gleefully evil animal abuser no matter what you have to say.They also have the easier side to argue.
That part is arguably true. Which is all the more reason for evangelical vegans NOT to have to behave like they’re missionaries educating savages every time they manage to trick a non-vegan into engaging with them.
Dietary choices, religions, and dietary choices treated as if they were a religion are like penises: it’s fine that you have them and it’s super that you enjoy them, but you are not allowed to try to force them on me without my consent.
Your freedom ends, where the freedom of others begins. Why would that not include animals?
Why would that not include animals?
three separate reasons.
they aren’t people. the don’t participate in our society. tehy don’t respect the freedoms of others.
It’s meateaters who want to debate me all the time
Absolutely a lie lol
I follow a plant based diet and agree with just about everything you wrote. I find that hardcore vegans can act like religious zealots yelling at little nine year old girls on the street for wearing a rainbow colored t-shirt.
You guys 🥹
Look the beans were great, but our own bender-hookers-and-blow meme. You shouldn’t have ☺️❤️❤️❤️
